[rhr]

Thanks, Derek.

I have seen similar lists of numbers for Duofolds, Challengers, and Vacumatics, but your list adds the True Blue and Depression pen numbers as well. I don't know what to make of these numbers, however, because many of the numbers repeat or duplicate the numbers in the early model number and parts number schemes. It must be some sort of separate numbering scheme used in the catalogues sent out to the dealers. Since Duofolds and Vacs of similar colors share the same numbers, it almost seems like a color numbering scheme. This catalogue numbering scheme constitutes a third numbering scheme, but one that is not compatible with the other two numbering schemes, which seem to be continuous and compatible with one another. Where the early model numbers leave off, the later parts numbers seem to pick up and carry on. The problem with this Grand Unification Theory is the crossover period of Duofolds and Vacs. I still haven't been able to find any compatible numbers that fill in this gap. Perhaps the three numbering schemes are not compatible and will never be reconciled.

Does anyone have copies of the early Parker Repair Parts Price Lists? There are 1937, 1942, and 1944 editions of these lists in the PCA library, but I haven't been able to get Dan Reppert's attention for the last two months, in order to purchase copies of these lists.

George Kovalenko.

[rhr]

Derek,

When I re-arranged your list by placing it in numerical order, certain patterns emerged. The tens and hundreds places don't seem to stand for anything specific, as in the Waterman's numbering scheme. But the ones place does stand for the size of the pen, the higher the number, the bigger the pen, and for the clip or ring-top appointments. The first four numbers also stand for the red color with black tips. The rest of the numbers, in their growing tens and hundreds places, seem to correspond to the chronological or sequential appearance of the various models of pens and pencils in their various colors, red first, then black, then the colorful celluloids. There are some exceptions, the pens with 20s, 30s, 40s, 200s, and 700s numbers. Also, it seems like two numbers were left out, 131 and 631, and number 208 should probably be 201.

George Kovalenko.




Duofold Numbers

Color descriptions in 1929 catalogue.

1 - Duofold Black-tipped Lacquer-Red, Lady flat-top, 3 cap bands, clip.
2 - Duofold Black-tipped Lacquer-Red, Lady flat-top, 3 cap bands with ring-top.
3 - Duofold Black-tipped Lacquer-Red, flat-top Jr., 2 cap bands.
7 - Duofold Black-tipped Lacquer-Red, flat top Sr. 2 cap bands.

11 - Duofold Flashing Black and Gold, Lady, 3 cap bands, clip.
12 - Duofold Flashing Black and Gold, Lady, 3 cap bands, ring-top.
13 - Duofold Flashing Black and Gold, flat-top Jr., 2 cap bands.
17 - Duofold Flashing Black and Gold, flat-top Sr., 2 cap bands.

(Depression pens, Lucky Curve imprints on barrels & nibs, $2.75 bandless, $3.50 with cap bands.)
24 - Black pen, gold trim, (Lady size) flat-top, no cap bands, ring-top, #2 nib.
25 - Black pen, gold trim, (Duofold Jr. size) flat-top, no cap bands, clip, #2 nib.
27 - Black pen, gold trim, (Duofold Special - slim size) flat-top, no cap bands, clip, #2 nib.
38 - Black pen, gold trim, (Lady pen size) 2 cap bands, ring-top, #2 nib.
39 - Black pen, gold trim, (Duofold Jr. size) flat-top, 2 cap bands, #2 nib.
41 - Black pen, gold trim, (Duofold Special size - slim size) flat-top, 2 cap bands, #3 nib.

48 - Parker Pastel Moire, Ring Top Pen, colors A, B, C, G, L, M
49 - Parker Pastel Moire, Clip Pen, all colors

71 - Duofold Black-tipped Lacquer-Red, Lady pencil, clip.
72 - Duofold Black-tipped Lacquer-Red, Lady pencil, ring-top.
73 - Duofold Black-tipped Lacquer-Red, Jr. pencil.
77 - Duofold Black-tipped Lacquer-Red Sr. pencil.

78 - Parker Pastel Moire, Ring Top Pencil, colors A, B, C, G, L, M
79 - Parker Pastel Moire, Clip Pencil, all colors

81 - Duofold Flashing Black and Gold, Lady pencil, clip.
82 - Duofold Flashing Black and Gold, Lady pencil, ring-top.
83 - Duofold Flashing Black and Gold, Jr. pencil.
87 - Duofold Flashing Black and Gold, Sr. pencil.

101 - Duofold Black-Tipped Green Jade, flat-top Lady Jr., 3 cap bands, clip.
102 - Duofold Black-Tipped Green Jade, flat-top Lady Jr., 3 cap bands, ring-top.
103 - Duofold Black-Tipped Green Jade, flat-top Jr., 2 cap bands.
107 - Duofold Black-Tipped Green Jade, flat-top Sr., 2 cap bands.

111 - Duofold Black-Tipped Lapis Lazuli, Lady, 3 cap bands, clip.
112 - Duofold Black-Tipped Lapis Lazuli, Lady, 3 cap bands, ring-top.
113 - Duofold Black-Tipped Lapis Lazuli, flat-top Jr., 2 cap bands.
117 - Duofold Black-Tipped Lapis Lazuli, flat-top Sr., 2 cap bands.

121 - Duofold Imperial Mandarin Yellow - Black Tipped, Lady, 3 cap bands, clip.
122 - Duofold Imperial Mandarin Yellow - Black Tipped, Lady, 3 cap bands, ring-top.
123 - Duofold Imperial Mandarin Yellow - Black Tipped, flat-top Jr., 2 cap bands.
127 - Duofold Imperial Mandarin Yellow - Black Tipped, Sr., 2 cap bands.

[131, no number?]
132 - Duofold Pearl & Ebony flat-top Lady ring-top pen 3 cap bands.
133 - Duofold Pearl & Ebony flat-top Jr. 3 cap bands.
137 - Duofold Pearl & Ebony flat-top Sr. 3 cap bands.

171 - Duofold Black-Tipped Green Jade, Jr. pencil, clip.
172 - Duofold Black-Tipped Green Jade, Jr. pencil, ring-top.
173 - Duofold Black-Tipped Green Jade, Jr. pencil.
177 - Duofold Black-Tipped Green Jade, Sr. pencil.

181 - Duofold Black-Tipped Lapis Lazuli, Lady pencil, clip.
182 - Duofold Black-Tipped Lapis Lazuli, Lady pencil, ring-top.
183 - Duofold Black-Tipped Lapis Lazuli, pencil.
187 - Duofold Black-Tipped Lapis Lazuli, Sr. pencil.

191 - Duofold Imperial Mandarin Yellow - Black Tipped, Lady pencil, clip.
192 - Duofold Imperial Mandarin Yellow - Black Tipped, Lady pencil, ring-top.
193 - Duofold Imperial Mandarin Yellow - Black Tipped, Jr. pencil.
197 - Duofold Imperial Mandarin Yellow - Black Tipped, Sr. pencil.

202 - "Three-Fifty" Lady flat-top pen, 2 cap bands, ring-top.
208 - "Three-Fifty" pen, flat-top, 2 cap bands, clip. [201?]

[631, no number?]
632 - Duofold Pearl & Ebony Lady pencil with ring-top.
633 - Duofold Pearl & Ebony Jr. pencil.
637 - Duofold Pearl & Ebony Sr. pencil

701 - "Three-Fifty" Jr. pencil, clip.
702 - "Three-Fifty" in Modernistic Blue (generally known as True Blue) Lady pencil, ring-top.

[rhr]

I know that there are some Lucky Curves around with a "22" on their blind cap, but I don't own one. The ones I've seen on eBay were not marked Jack Knife Safety, so I think they were from the early 20s after the JKS went away.

John, another #22 showed up on Ebay, this one chased, so it should more rightly be called a 22½, Item 200171548514.

George Kovalenko.

[John Danza]

John, another #22 showed up on Ebay, this one chased, so it should more rightly be called a 22½, Item 200171548514.

I'm sorry I missed that one George, only because of the great nib.

Since my previous post about the 22-1/2, I have managed to pick one up. It's in good physical shape, but it's got a general discoloration to olive green. It's only got a "2-1/2" on the blind cap, but unlike others I've seen with the missing first digit this one has a JKS-imprinted cap. I'll take some pictures as soon as I can and post it.

All the best,
John

[Rob Astyk]

Hi, All,

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Mine is as little as anyone's when it comes to Parkers - probably other things too - which is why so many consider me so dangerous, I guess.

Anyway, when I see a heap of information with lots of variables to sort through my first reaction is that all that information needs a database. So I made copies of the catalogue pages, ads and lists that John, Derek and George have published here and I dug out my own Parker catalogues and ads and got into this rather daunting task of creating a database that sorts out the Parker model numbers. However, as little knowledge as I have of databases, I have less of Parkers. That lack of knowledge and a good deal of over-thinking this problem have led me to some questions and an impass.

The first thing one needs to do in creating a database is figure out what items will define a model and its variants and how frequently they occur. For those that are common and important one needs a separate field. Minor variables can often be taken care of in notes or in combination with some other factor which tends to appear simultaneously. So far I've come up with the following:

Barrel - material
Barrel - chasing or not
Barrel - shape

Blind Cap - material
Blind Cap - shape

Cap - material
Cap - type (e.g. screw, slip, etc.)
Cap - shape

Cap Top - material
Cap Top - type (e.g. turban, standard JKS, Streamline, etc.)

Feed - material
Feed - type (e.g. spear, Vacumatic, etc.)

Filling System

(Oops! I forgot to include one of the most obvious items when I was writing this last night. 1/17. RWA)
Nib - material
Nib - size (company designation)
Nib - type (i.e. conventional, 51, etc.)


Trim and Overlay - material
Trim and Overlay - style (e.g. art nouveau, art deco, etc.)
Trim and Overlay - extent (i.e. how much of what part is covered)
Trim and Overlay - location (i.e. what part is it on and where)

Other Part(s) - material
Other Part(s) - description

So what I'd like to know from those more expert in these things than I, am I missing anything? If so, what? Are there other variables that you think I should separate out?

Also I'd like to make this a comprehensive as possible so I'd also like some help with specific parts. For example, Parker originally marketed both over and under feed pens. I have the patent information for those early feeds but are there variants? I suspect that when the Lucky Curve feed appeared there must have been similar models of identical number or designation with the old and new feeds, but do you Parker experts have evidence of this? The original Spear Feed was a Lucky Curve with a pair of square cuts opposite one another near the tip of the feed. There was a variant with 2 pair of such cuts. Then, of course, there's the later version with the series of diagonal cut notches in each side of the feed but were there variants in between?

I have a slip cap 24 button filler in my collection and a very long 24 turban top button filler so there were some interesting variants in that overlap between slip and screw caps. Are there others that should be included?

And as for the Parker 15 I count 9 variants as follows:

All mother of pearl slabs, flat
All mother of pearl slabs, fluted
All mother of pearl slabs, spiral corrugations

Alternating mother of pearl and abalone slabs, flat
Alternating mother of pearl and abalone slabs, fluted
Alternating mother of pearl and abalone slabs, spiral corrugations

All abalone slabs, flat
All abalone slabs, fluted
All abalone slabs, spiral corrugations

Yet I think that I'm forgetting one style in each variation of shell overlay and I don't know whether the bands that retain the shell overlay only came in gold filled or could be had in solid gold too.

So, if you have information to contribute, please contact me either by posting your information here or back channel and lets see if we can create a list of all Parker numbers and all the variant pens to which those numbers apply in a form that's readily searchable and makes some sense of the Gordian Knot that the Parker Pen Company has left us to untangle. I promise that anyone participating will get full credit for their contributions and that the database will be fully accessible once completed.

Take care,

Rob Astyk

[John Danza]

Hi Rob,

First off, thanks for starting the daunting task of a database for this information. As you've noted, the number of variables are many. I think the early pens is where it gets really crazy. I have a few more to add unfortunately.

One variable to add would be barrel length. The Jack Knife Safety series is filled with models where the same number was used for multiple length pens, with the added designation of "Baby", "Short", or "Long".

When you get to the very early models, the type of chasing is also a variable. As an example, I've seen the early model 9 pen in three different chasing variations: one with what would be what you would call the "standard" chasing pattern you see on all Parkers, another that I own that would be the "standard" chasing rotated 90 degrees, and then a third chasing that looks more like a dot-and-line pattern. The latter two examples are overfeed pens with the last patent date being 1894, which would put the pens in the 1895-1897 manufacture timeframe.

On your variations of the Model 15, the one variation that you're missing is the color of the slabs. The pearl slabs were available in pink as well as natural. That's probably the variation you were trying to remember.

All the best,
John

[Rob Astyk]

Hi, John, et al.,

First off, thanks for starting the daunting task of a database for this information. As you've noted, the number of variables are many. I think the early pens is where it gets really crazy. I have a few more to add unfortunately.

Thanks for the encouragement! You are not kidding when noting that the early pens are crazy !!! But the craziness carries forward at least into the Streamline Duofolds and, I suspect later.

One variable to add would be barrel length. The Jack Knife Safety series is filled with models where the same number was used for multiple length pens, with the added designation of "Baby", "Short", or "Long".

Excellent point. I'm only a couple of hundred entries into the database so rearranging things a little isn't much trouble at this point. Still, carrying forward the "crazy" theme, about 200 entries only includes some of the pens to 1905 and the pens and pencils in the 1931 Duofold catalogue. The database for Watermans is so much more orderly even considering all the configurations a 52 can come in. I will definitely add barrel length as a criteria.

When you get to the very early models, the type of chasing is also a variable.

I've intentionally chosen to bunt on the chasing issue. The early catalogue I have lists that, "The pen is available in a variety of chasing patterns." I'm including wording to that effect in the notes on most of the holders. However, if the model has a pattern of chasing unique to it (e.g. the one with overall chasing that defines 5 pointed stars) or a style of overlay that defines that model, I'm including those in the definition. Common styles of chasing or engraving on the overlay are going to get short shrift for now. I am, however, allowing for their later addition. This task is, as you say, daunting enough without getting it further bogged down in details that my advertising, ephemera and collection don't illustrate. There'a always room for later refinement.

On your variations of the Model 15, the one variation that you're missing is the color of the slabs. The pearl slabs were available in pink as well as natural. That's probably the variation you were trying to remember.

Thank you again! That was exactly it.

And, by the way, those numbers in George's list that are "missing" as pen or pencil designations, like #'s 2, 13, 17, 19, 22 etc...they exist but they appear in the wierdest places often temporally long removed from their logical place in the "system".

When I was working on my history of Moore that's been on hold since Stylophiles Magazine folded I came to the conclusion that the Moore numbering system didn't assume anything more than ad hoc logic until American Fountain Pen was reorganized into Moore. What they did was decide model numbers as variants came along and without any of the size related logic that pervades even the pre-1917 Watermans. For example, a Model 10 might have a #2 nib in a plain, black holder. A Model 20 might have a #3 nib and come in the #10 holder. A Model 40 might have a #4 nib and gain a 1/16th inch in barrel diameter to accommodate the nib but the #4 nib size and the #4 in the model designation are largely coincidental. I think that something similar pertained at Parker.

What we don't know and may never find out is the alpha-numeric designation that was on the bins of completed pens at the Janesville factory. There probably was more order in the internal model designations for inventory purposes than we can now discern from looking at the consumer level information we now have.

In any case, the object of this game is to create a database from which one could take a model number off a pen or advertising piece and pull up all the variants of that model number including (it's already built into the database) photos of the pen (there can be several for each model).

Thanks for your help.

Take care,

Rob Astyk

[Rob Astyk]

Hi, All,

Just a brief update: As usual I'm flailing around making sure that I've captured as many variables as possible. Just to give you an idea of the "daunting task" involved, the 1905 catalogue I own contains entries for 39 distinct models/model numbers (including the #2 Traveler's Ink George noted). So far the various details of those 38 pens (not counting the ink this time) have yielded 145 distinct variants and I'm still counting.

Take care,

Rob Astyk